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And Then There Was Silence

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Hiro facegrass

Hero musings

I love Heroes; I think it's a great tv series. It's about people being given gifts and talents, and them raising up to find out how to deal with those gifts and what they can do to help other people in need.

It can kind of be applied to the church. God gives Christians various gifts, and he wants us to be able to use those gifts in order to help the church and give glory to him. I think I have a gift with children, so I want to be able to use that by serving children at the church I'm a part of. I'm also going into teaching, which will help me build on my gift and I can use it to make money.

Anyway, that was a digression from what I originally wanted to write about. The people with powers, are able to manipulate certain things around them. Hiro can manipulate space and time at an incredible level. But as I thought about it, so someone who is blind, we are able to manipulate our sight. To someone who is deaf, we can manipulate our hearing. etc. It made me think of all the things I have and should be thankful for. Instead of pining away for fictional powers I wish I could have, I ought to go run a race, because I'm so thankful I have legs and feet that work and that I can manipulate!

Anyway, I wasn't pining around for fictional powers, but it had me thinking how we ought to be so thankful for what we have. This show encourages me to be thankful that I can do what I can do. What a great gift I've already been given!

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If God gives Christians various gifts, then where do the gifts of non-Christians come from?

I think we gain out powers through evolution.

Ergo, everyone on Heroes is an atheist.

Shush - if you're going to debate with someone on a logical basis, with any hope of being convincing, you can't start out on the extreme. Baby steps. :-P

lol. The Haitian believes in God though, re: Season 2, Episode 2

But The Hatian Sensation is almost as crazy as Sylar, he's clearly not a good source.

The Bible doesn't say that non-Christians get gifts. I'm not denying that you lot aren't talented in various ways; you just don't get gifts of the Spirit. Those are gifts given by God to His people.

4There are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5There are different kinds of service, but the same Lord. 6There are different kinds of working, but the same God works all of them in all men.

7Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. 8To one there is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom, to another the message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, 9to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, 10to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues. 11All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he gives them to each one, just as he determines.
1 Corinthians 12

So you're saying that while both Christians and non-Christians can be talented, there is something inherently different about the gifts possessed by Christians which shows that they are divine providence? Something intangible and completely immeasurable except on the basis of holy doctrine?

I don't know, that's a bit of a stretch. It's a very complicated theory that hinges on lots of untestable assumptions being true. There is simply no evidentiary basis to the gifts of Christians being essentially different/better than the talents of non-Christians.

Consider the alternative, that people are talented at certain things based on a combination of environment/genetics, and receive no special imaginary gifts from an invisible sky god.

Occam's razor takes it from there.

So you're saying that while both Christians and non-Christians can be talented, there is something inherently different about the gifts possessed by Christians which shows that they are divine providence?

They are divine providence, but they are not proof of divine providence in a Christian's life. The proof is in the fruits of the Spirit; which are, love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self control. Combined with that is a genuine love for God and proclaiming Jesus as Lord.

Something intangible and completely immeasurable except on the basis of holy doctrine?

I wouldn't say it's totally immeasurable, but I don't think anyone's ever done tests on it either. Some Christians would claim that it's not immeasurable and will tell you exactly the gifts they have and when they received them. I've always been a Christian, so I haven't had any experience with before and after effects of Christianity.

I'm not denying that people are talented at certain things based on a combination of environment/genetics, but I also believe that Christians receive special gifts from a God who loves us.

Occam's razor would dictate that God created the world, not the entire evolutionary process just happening despite all the environmental and biological probabilities against it. So proteins just decided to join together to form DNA all on their own?

Why are you so against this concept?

(no subject) (Anonymous) Expand
(no subject) (Anonymous) Expand
Wow, Kat...I've read this entry three times and I'm just not seeing anything in it that should have been offensive or inflammatory. I guess I don't possess the gift of seeing a potential argument in everything. ;)

I think it's important to note, though, that God created all humans, and thus He did bestow ALL of our particular gifts and talents, Christians and non-Christians alike. We are all born with certain gifts, but it is only after we make a choice to follow Christ or reject Him that our talents are either used to proclaim His eternal glory or squandered on earthly things. I think the gifts of the Spirit fall into a different category entirely: they are, indeed, given ONLY to Christians, and are separate from our specific individual talents (which exist independent of whether we choose life in Christ or death in rejection of Him).

In that sense, your detractors are correct: their talents DO come from the same source as yours (though they do not recognise that source). The difference is in the way we choose to use them: for the eternal, or for something impermanent.

yeah, sometimes I just don't understand where the arguments stem from. I rejoice in the gifts I'm giving, go on to rejoice some more in the gift of being able to walk (which most of my non-Christian friends have and is what is being defined as a talent) and people jump on me!

"Where are the gifts for non-Christians?"
where's you faith in God?

I just don't understand! *throws hands up in exasperation*

I think as time is going on, I'm finding it harder to argue these things; because I'm finding it harder to see their perspective.
For example, considering that a pie in the sky god arbitrarily gives gifts willy-nilly... I just don't see how that is! How can I argue that when I don't even see how that could possibly be true!

My relationship with God is very personal and up close, I encounter Him every day and I couldn't possibly imagine him as pie-in-the-sky arbitrary.

I was simply asking a question, and your answer spawned a debate. I hardly think asking honest questions constitutes an argument - it's just that I find your explanations unsatisfying and I disagree with a lot of things you say.

I know, and I'm okay with the questions, but sometimes it's frustrating that it spawns a debate. At the moment more so than other times because I feel like I'm hitting a brick wall with an ongoing argument with Fru.

Here's something to think about: why are they able to understand and argue your perspective, yet you seem to be unable to understand argue theirs?

Here's something else to consider: who you're thanking. On one hand, you're thanking God.
But on the other, as a teacher, wouldn't you want to believe that you had some positive effect on the children you teach?
That is, so too wouldn't you look at your teachers, your parents and the people who have come before you and to some greater or lesser degree helped shape who you are?

To put it another way: say you were a primary school teacher for a child for 6 years, who finished top of their school. At the end, they tell you (privately) that you did absolutely nothing for them for their entire time there, and you were a waste of time and space. Then, they publicly thank God for everything they have and became. Would you feel, even the slightest, like maybe that child didn't know what he was talking about, and just maybe some of his success DID come from your skills and endeavors?

Now switch roles and listen to you thanking just one person/thing/deity.

My point, in case you missed it: I claim we are made from more than one lump of clay, with more than one sculpture. Our world and those in it effects us as much as any predestination might. Pavlov worked that bit out at least :-P

Everything else said, it _IS_ nice to have what we have, and I do concur - there are times when it is nice to reminded that it is good to be alive :-)

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